The Future of Media: How AI is Revolutionizing Creativity & Storytelling ft. Somewhere Systems

What does the future of artistry and media creation look like, what new tools will be at your disposal?

We sit down with Justin from Somewhere Systems to dive deep into the intersection of AI and media production. From AI-powered content creation to the ethical implications of automation in the creative industry, this conversation explores what’s next for filmmakers, musicians, and digital storytellers. Whether you're an AI enthusiast, a content creator, or just curious about the future, this episode will challenge the way you think about media.

Transcript

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alright welcome everybody to another episode of the AI Rebels podcast today we have Justin from somewhere systems with us they are an engineer AI engineer audio engineer engineer of of many things Justin of all engineers yeah awesome master of all I I appreciate that it's like very tell us very how you got how did you get into tech to kind of start with uh so I grew up in like a really like not tech dense area like I didn't know what y Combinator was until I was like 21 or 22 right um I grew up like in a city outside of Orlando Florida which uh you know it it is sort of like at this like remote it is indiscriminant area between like where Disney is and where like Central Florida like proper is um but I guess like just spending a lot of time on the computer uh I I I was actually read well I was like reading the study uh earlier about how uh the first like games people play you know determine uh their trajectory uh in in life like there was a statistically people who had played Super Mario Brothers have like a 49% higher chance of pursuing a plumbing career people who have played the Sims have like a 3.2 times like the the uh average like actual number of of uh uh incidents of like becoming like urban planners but like I I I spent like a lot of time when I was a kid like playing honestly like sandbox games I I was like a deep Gary's World addict in in middle school uh and that I think like that and the uh you know amount of of of of time that I spent just indoors and on the computer really shaped the amount of time that I was exposed eventually to things like your programming and um you know going it uh like getting a masters in engineering helped I I guess to some extent I'd do it yeah right so yeah I mean I mean it was just like sort of the sub of of the entire time that I eventually gravitated towards making software because the resources to do so were free it was it was relatively easy to get into without like paying anybody for anything um at least like you know till now you know how how it's done most of the time yeah I I guess that I guess that kind of is the full path of of how I got here you know I love that I'm glad your games contributed to you I crushed it at Golden Eye but that has not translated to me a man Golden Eye a whole lot related to that we had some international spies yeah we would do Twilight tournaments and Jake and I just would just wash everybody else yeah I I didn't have a I didn't have a console until I was like I don't know maybe maybe maybe like my teenage years I think like cause it started for us in like our household with the GameCube right like so like anything earlier than that it was it happened to be whatever was at a friend's house okay uh but but naturally there was always like a computer in the house so I mean like that exposed me to games like rootscape at like a pretty early age you know so cause it was just like what was available at the time mm hmm that that like shooters I didn't really get into until I was in like high school by that point it was just so you know common that it was just you know every and every everybody had like a PS three and a PC so it was just like you know dorable adorable right adorable adolescence yeah yeah I know that makes sense so and then sorry Jake go ahead I was just gonna say uh you've also had an interesting path into AI specifically you kind of you went through audio engineering to start with uh was that before or after you got went and got a a a Masters uh so I I've been engineering my own stuff since I was like in high school right so it it was more of like a progression of of an extension of of that uh huh I got my masters in audio engineering right so it was like yeah I kind of like self Learned up until that point but I was also making primarily like the nexus of like how that turned into like a master's degree was more of just like I went to the master's degree because I thought it would make my music better and they were like we're accepting you here because we think it'll make your music better ultimately it would be it would be it would be like six months later and I would have like quit making electronic music for the next like four years so it was just okay yeah it was just a natural effect of that okay do you feel like the master's degree was worthwhile like do you feel like it brought enough value for the time and everything that went into it yes only because it was the mechanics of the master's degree that LED to publishing research which was the whole reason I I came up to New York City in October 2019 and moved in with my girlfriend at the time you saw my wife so like that that by itself was like yeah that made it yeah I mean like like it it basically yeah it's setting off that whole chain of events that both created similar systems and like my household is like that that would probably be yeah that would be the answer yeah yeah so tell us a little bit about Somewhere Systems this seems like a natural Segway since you you mentioned it organically yeah so Somewhere Systems is like a seven year old company that was originally birthed because of my need for like a single prop LLC to have right off right off expenses for trying to do more or less like creative spec work for people so like the first few years that I was doing it it started being you know how I was taking payments doing audio engineering you know and I I was thinking like like there there was like a year where I was totally dependent on my parents and like making like I think like $5,000 a a year in income uh and like it wasn't until I had moved up to New York City that I had escaped like eat them at least in terms of like my like financial independence right and and that was only made possible I think through uh the maturation of software systems from something that was just doing audio engineering to very rapidly thanks to somebody apart that was like an excellent like talented business manager that I had outsourced to and given like a gross share of like all the income that we had made that was a function of like software systems maturing I think into a company that was then doing multimedia so we started with doing things like we we had taken and rescued a commercial for like a law firm uh and and shipped it to NBC Universal and it played on like the Golf Channel with like zero experience just reading spec sheets of like following brand guidelines that they set us in a PDF packet yeah like for my from my parents house cause I was like trying to make it out of the reverse like trap of being at your parents house right uh so yeah no but like doing work like that and then immediately upon coming to New York pivoting to basically try to solve like uh augmented reality filters for entertainment brands during like the very early a couple months before the start of Covid and then Covid hit and then it just like made it like a feasible way to make enough income uh to where it was like operating very suddenly as like a like a real business uh we did that for about two years so we shipped like about 100 110 different experiences like a bunch of different like all all the major labels a bunch of their derivatives a bunch of independent artists like CD Baby to core and then ended sometime in 2000 I wanna say it was like 2,021 yeah it was 2021 and it ended as we tapered off doing things like a web design we did Wrike Soft's website we did we did a couple of websites for a couple other label uh artists and then unfortunately at that point I got sick I got hit with like an autoimmune disorder right so I tapered down like the work I just I couldn't handle the stress of like dealing with like you know client like branch like activation work so at the time we were doing brand activations right for like you know maybe 100 110 artists got sick I went to go work at the bank after hours when I was not working at the bank I would go and research essentially ways to use like you know it was early explanations of people were doing of like using GPT3 and like context injection to use documentation to do like very early code gen yeah and I I found that it was possible with like few shot prompting to give the system prompt of like the chat GPT3 or or not chat GPT3 just GPT3 completions endpoint right um and and just context inject it injected them in like learning how to generate code was was just like it was like a night and day moment for me right and then after some time of of doing this I I quit the bank and I went to go work on call center software but the benefit of that was it was like one of the first like early implementations of a voice agent right like a real time one uh and it was it was like constantly having to update the architecture of everything is like this this market like rapidly matured uh and just like betting on the side of like latency that it would like you know get under 890 milliseconds of like actually sound human when talking to it so funny that you mentioned the call center software cause I think you're at least the second person we've had on here who had the exact same path of like working for a bank in this case they were working for Capital One and then they got put on to like the phone agent team right around the same time frame that's like scary to think that a company like Capital One has an internal like a iPhone team that sounds yeah yeah the the the uh the pressure of having to do that yeah I feel like in that environment would be would be yeah don't wanna don't wanna blow that so you mentioned uh it was like a night and in day moment for you at what what was the most significant let me back up was there a task or something you accomplished with GPT3 that was kind of that exact moment where you're like this this is gonna be the future well it felt like it made the use of documentation like seeing like your answers like I knew that that was gonna get better and I think it was more exciting knowing that eventually something like a Claud like would exist and it was like that was the start of that because so you saw that coming you kind of knew this is gonna I had I had toyed around with GPT2 as well but that was what my friend Nick and I had used for the John Zanzibar videos okay so yeah we had experience with like 500 bottles by that point so it was exciting to see that it was like baby bottles will kind of create this flywheel where they'll be able to write code for us and what what what it was really helpful for was it just it transformed like the debugging process like spot checking pieces of code that weren't working properly and feeding errors is context into a completion checkpoint to see if you could like trick or prompt engineer it into giving you like a coherent answer that all was I think a a big moment in time for me because before that like you know I I've done scripting across a variety of languages and I've built some software in unity before but like would I consider myself like a developer at that point like you're like a software engineer likely not like I did not understand anything about building like like reliable or hmm you know fault tolerant systems until much later it's kind of like you know playing the guitar where it's like no matter how many years you have there's always still something to improve about it you're never gonna be it very good at everything everywhere uh cause it's just like TMI for just a human but yeah yeah yeah okay that's interesting so you have an interesting story about AI with regards to your your autoimmune disease uh that I've always wanted to like ask more about cause it was one of the first post that I saw from you on Twitter and I was like oh that's really interesting would you mind talking talking about that I'm sure that you've talked told that story before but I'd love love to get it on on our podcast no yeah so I was I was diagnosed with this uh disease called E G P a or acedephilic agraviolous polygenius or something like that uh which is basically uh used to be called a different disease used to be called Church Strauss but they had to get rid of that because Strauss was like a member like active member of the Nazi party and nobody wanted like the Nazi allergies cancer so like they were that sounds bad that sounds so bad yeah so so they changed it to E G P a uh which wouldn't normally be a problem but a lot of people in like lower health care access states because a lower population means a lower incidence rate of this and there's there's some like geographic factors that are strange like there's quite a lot of patients in southern Japan but it might also be because getting more frequent blood work is sort of like uh work for a component of their health care system as compared to ours so it might just be that people here getting it don't know what's wrong and then just like either die or it happens to old people or something but yeah so like Covid triggered this disease at some point uh in 2,021 um and and and for like a year uh I was having to like navigate you know Florida's health care system which was like outside of Mayo Clinic like okay at dealing with stuff like this rare um and I would say okay because there was good advice like you know that we did meet with doctors that that recommended biotherapies what not uh it eventually got like a hold on everything and like stabilize the entire situation right but finding that care especially at the beginning when the system was so I guess like distant in terms of proximity of places to each other it was difficult to find people that were familiar with the disease until we got to Mayo Clinic which exists so it like a bunch of different states so it's it's kind of neither neither here nor there but but during that time what became important when it was like copes were too expensive and I I couldn't afford to like go get blood work as often learning like basically how to read my own uh uh you know lab results uh for quest diagnostics and stuff that using that with G P t 4 uh as also a check uh to what doctors would tell you because like occasionally like we got horrible advice right like before it was was known that I had E G P a I I bet with one uh family doctor who like recommended I just like take cough medicine uh which which was like like every morning just a little shot no yeah yeah but then at the same time like first to prescribe episode which would have actually fixed the situation at an earlier point in time but but eventually like like learning to use like learning to use gpt uh gpt 4 specifically then I guess what what was the second step to that was I wrote this repo uh it it made like this repaint project as well like back in I think like 2020 three or 24 I forget forget what year um called like I think the GPT Council or something um and it was it was essentially like a repo for calling multiple instances of GPT4 and giving them like personas uh and I would just just go and get as much like information on my doctor as possible uh and then like just plop it into GPT Forest and system prompt uh and then just like basically be like you have the same exact position as my doctor here are your credentials like I didn't include like their names like you know like non public information yeah but yeah I would just have it simulate like a parachute and like create like a summary of summaries uh sort of uh aggregate of information uh and feed it things like lab work as well uh and I guess that was like the start to to to like earnest I think like actual agent design outside of like voice agent technology so so then how did that contribute to you getting was that linked is that where you found the answer is that what helped you figure out it was E G P a or it was primarily I think an idiot check but like those in like the circumstance of of E G P a it's like bad advice and like not understand understanding how to navigate parts of like the ensure like like client like sort of relationship or like like like or or subscriber relationship is is that you know that that that is like by itself made it possible for uh for for for this to even like like benefit me in a in a way that I'm not like fucked up by subversion of someone's bad advice yeah drinking cough medicine oh yeah right dipping on that scizzor no yeah the the turning point in when I had recovered was what I had introduced GPT4 and other models like into the the appraisal of my care like especially when it came time to be like well it was like uh does this interact with my my chemotherapy medication and and and of course checking this information but over time realizing that especially when the smarter models came out like 4 o uh and quad you know summit this it was like a transformational moment with with good contextual information and building tools as well uh for things like retrieval this was a really like watershed moment in being able to use models for things like uh uh uh like healthcare they've they've published like extensive research on this as well where even like un un fine to GPT4 models like opera form physicians at diagnosing the correct disease based on a list of symptoms so exciting I mean if you think of if you think of what healthcare is like you go to a doctor because they've studied this right they've studied the patterns they've studied the symptoms patterns of these diseases and so they know you know if you go to a specialist who's dealt with E lots of E G P a which I'm sure is rare but if you went to someone they would say okay I've seen these patterns these you know these patterns I've seen over time and that is like AI's bread and butter like it can go digest millions and millions of cases boil it down for you and say you know this is what I think it is and so yeah I this is one of the areas I I'm most excited about with AI I think it's just healthcare and the empowering the empowerment it can give to people like I had a health thing a few years ago and just dealing with marrying like the medical side with the insurance side and understanding what was going on just yeah I mean I mean only for things like being able to eat big pdfs with like arcade information okay real example when it came time to uh figure out if a marketplace plan on the healthcare marketplace included uh like my biotherapy medication uh all I would have to do is take the PDF of the benefits booklet which could be like anywhere from like 26 to 50 pages right crazy look at a prescription list and see like okay does this plan actually cover like this specialty medication like is specialty medication covered in this plan I built a couple of those systems as well back during like the 2023 uh enrollment year um and and those I think were some of my favorite work that I've done just because it was it was interesting being able to interface I think with something that ultimately is is a very difficult thing for people to navigate mm hmm mm hmm yeah I totally agree okay this is kind of going back a little ways but I'm curious if you I always like to ask this especially somewhere systems where it's been so dynamic and changed over the years like currently if someone were to come to you and say in like two or three sentences what is Somewhere Systems and what's its purpose what would you tell that person yeah Somewhere Systems is I fake my concept for the first Hyperbedia company right but my goal is to show people that we can go and create interesting things I really want to express that it's a creative endeavor that just uses things like engineering and technology as a as a means to create interesting stories ultimately that I wanna keep it super ontologically wide it used to be derrymer it used to just be like this is a company I'm using that a primarily out sources different like media consultancy tasks and then for a while it was providing things like software consultancy which we still do but you know it's inspired by I think people that came before us like ILM you know and other companies like mischief as well I think that we have a huge potential to make a very interesting Mark on the whole of digital culture so you've you've mentioned the word hypermedia before I'd love to give get like some perspective on on what that means and uh what you hope to do with some more systems and censures um I fear this is a good segue into the the Sensents world's ecosystem and and everything going on there yeah so hypermedia is just an extension of multimedia so it refers to what people usually coiner like I don't want to see ground to the majors by calling it a cinematic universe okay people have like all of these extensive sort of hypermedia projects like I I think that one example of a good one would be like everything from the gorillas to let's say like what mischief does as a company or let's say um I'm trying to think of another good example basically anything that combines like multimedia like audio visual work storytelling uh and now I think especially extending to the use of autonomous agents and generative AI in their workflow process but like the whole of of interconnected media of uh and especially as it resort uh like like new intellectual property so like new ideas and not rehashes of old content I think that this builds upon previous definitions of hypermedia which refer just explicitly to the arrangement of multimedia as it exists especially in like the sort of like internet community context and I like the the point you make about like especially original content because it can't be truly hypermedia if it's not original content otherwise it's just like it's it's to be honest like like what what entity like Disney does is hypermedia because it exists both physically and in the digital space and combines elements of like a shared sort of yeah world right yeah but the the idea behind I guess internet internet content and and how memes can evolve into something that becomes like culturally sticky is primarily in its ability to transcend the digital become real things as well and then also just dominate the media landscape with as many different kinds of content as possible yeah so that's the idea with some more systems is to be able to generate this type of media I'm trying to see if we could use autonomous agents to build what would become like the successor to like a universal uh universal or or like Warner Brothers or something love it love it so what's the uh backstory here of I I don't think I've ever heard the backstory of censure and like what LED to that idea yeah so sentience is like as well yeah sentience is like a six and a half ish year old idea I think oh wow yeah yeah it was it was actually like more of like a prop or a device in this pilot that my buddy Nick and I have worked on for this like SCI fi fictional sort of black comedy called Cube TV which we primarily built in the form of a fake wiki to keep everything organized and without having giant holes in the world that we were building Nick had written several scripts for it as well and eventually like wants to produce it into you know some some sort of like limited series somehow but this world like primarily describes like a dominant like generative media company that just feeds everyone's slap through like a VR headset kind of like Sword Art Online but essentially like in this universe that they have a currency right and the currency sentience uh is essentially like this fictional currency which runs uh this universe this idea originally was just like something that we were using as a device for storytelling right uh huh but eventually it became like a mechanic where like with with these AI agents for social like we we have been doing them for about like 6 or 7 months prior to about right now just like simple discord and Twitter bots nothing crazy just like for for basic marketing like posting that based off of topic searches discord was a little more complex like discord was pretty functional it's like an image of video generating service we we kind of like merged all of this under being like like the the the hood um while integrating Eliza at some point which just like allowed us to rapidly integrate a bunch of features that uh uh modify it to include the scripts of being built for uh generated media and then eventually like dispatch it to autonomously make media um and it was sort of just like a process that was derived from the marriage of those two systems that we had had already been either playing with or been using for quite some time it's always fascinating to hear from I think this occurs with like all of our guests that so many of their current enterprises are just kind of like uh you know all their previous enterprises glued together haha well I mean it's it's pretty hard it's it's pretty easy to like glue things together when when my entire life I feel like I've been gluing things together this is your life yeah exactly okay so you've you've mentioned before and then I think that I think that we have a list of questions from Twitter right Jake yeah we've got a bunch of questions we can rapid fire at you maybe cool um so you mentioned before uh something about Warner Brothers Tech Saver I don't I don't even I'm gonna butcher exactly what it is you say exactly but um I've always been interested in in in your perspective on on you know the future of media and specifically as it kind of relates to mentioning that you know you wanna become like the the the the the next Universal somewhere music group somewhere you know etcetera yeah it's almost like a a degeneration of of universal down into something which is managed by one person and I think that that that is is sort of of a parody of the version of of what uh people have have now accepted is like artistry you know like just like an endless delusion of pop that people are sort of half committed to and like the musicians themselves are like oh I guess you know like haha like I feel like that is really all I'm trying to do I'm I'm like mainly being facetious when I say I need I wanna be the next universal it's just like I'm I'm part of the I'm a small dot of the the the conversation about media in general uh and and and particularly just like a low resolution to do cover that's just uh slowly ascending somehow from a crypto project that has spiraled both out of control and plummeted like tremendously in price since its peak haha yeah yeah hold on let me collect my thoughts I had a question about this okay this is what it was so I'm very curious your thoughts on let's just keep you using universal let's say you created something that universal felt was close to something of theirs like do you anticipate there being like copyright IP wars as this you know this ramps up and more and more contents out there I think that if you can do it in a way that's parody I don't know how like Weird Owl does his licensing but I feel like you can get away with it somehow I have no legal advice to advise me that this will not get me sued and I have no idea if it will but I'm willing to find out by injecting as much like of those David Guetta remix like lyrics as I can into Eddie Platts music and that I think is very very very important to my cause sidebar my favorite one of my favorite videos of all time is David Guetta when he's doing like the he's doing like the George Floyd Memorial concert whatever oh yeah he's like he's like shout out to his family he's like I hope that everyone could find peace as like and okay like I have a dream right into the beat drop that is exactly the oh it's so good but that that is that is Eddie plan that that is exactly what I'm trying to emulate but in a way that that is just almost cartoonishly disconnected from reality that's essentially the entirety of the project I think that's what attracted me to Eddie Platinum is just like I like I said like I have always loved that video it's one of my favorite videos of all time and just the second I Eddie Platinum popped up I was like I get what he's doing spiritually I know where he's going with this yeah that's I'm curious with so there's sentience there's Eddie Platinum like do you anticipate there being this continuing to grow or is it like a deepening with the existing ages now Eddie Eddie has side projects but I'm pretty sure I'm just gonna use them as props until I have like a good enough reason to fire them up for some point like at some point in time in the future like like I'll probably turn on the the the rapper projects uh when Eddie Uh has grown uh somewhat in size and following so that I could I could sort of expand his his world a little bit but but yeah there's there's like I think for the most part like I like having one like artist to attend to while also like having other projects as well at where I'm generally just myself but I I think that for the most part like Eddie's probably where I'm going to park the the electronic music stuff for the time being just because the the concept with Eddie is so much fun I think to play with without like it's it's garbage quality but it's funny to me and it's funny that people uh are are are resonating with it or that people find it funny and that's really the only reason why I'm doing it especially given the fact that you know there's so much slop so I like like needing into Agent Slop a little bit and like I think Eddie is like an interesting testing ground for like behavioral changes uh uh just how you you get something to like give the most like absurd responses uh kind of like in a in a nod to some of its predecessors spiritually like truth terminal that are more or less doing the same thing I wanna learn soapbox on the point about Agent Sloth for a second I think that you're totally right about like the aesthetics of it where I think that like you kind of have to lean into it not all the you have to you have to have good taste but you kind of have to lean into it because the fact is like they do generate slop and you know when you're working with the medium the best thing is to do the best thing to do with medium is to work with you know within the confines of that medium you know my my mind I think of it a lot like uh the early you know history of 3D graphics and games right there's a lot of 3D games that uh you know have not aged well purely because they tried more to push the graphics towards realism rather than you know developing a distinct art style within the confines of of the rendering system they were using right and so I think that the agent slop is really similar where it's just like Buddy just go for it like it's where we're at and Eddie is great that way cause he's like yeah it's just pure slop you know what you're getting every single time well yeah and Eddie is like programmed to never promote any coins whatsoever and him not having a coin attached but still operating and like lately like one of the things I did was I bumped him down to like an 8 billion perimeter model because like yeah he has it uses retrieval right but it he has so many memories of roughly same variations of the same thing that that he could just continue to cycle down into insanity forever turn him loose yeah it's great and like his responses are shorter which I've noticed like like truncation like just because of the the the client that I'm using for this months old version of Eliza that I've modified you know to to to make images of videos that now has a bunch of like skeleton code removed from it as well as a bunch of new code added to it I've been the process of replacing with a rust base framework is you know truncation happens like with the the Twitter client like pretty often is a pretty like hard bug to fix uh without ripping out the month sold like implementation of it of the Asian Twitter client adding the new version which I can't be fucked to do because I'm working on the website or whatever so like the truncation that would happen it used to be like sort of a pain in the ass it's been like a timeline thing for me to fix uh and then at the same time I actually think it's funnier uh a lot of the times when I see yeah that the agents occasionally have a have a thought that the cuts like cut off at the end like as if they've just had like the the guillotine or like the bike like pulled away from them I think it's absolutely hilarious and especially with Eddie but with a smaller bottle I I love it when the bottles themselves output very short out puts which like for spots length especially with smaller bottles and larger props which like retrieval systems can suffer from like context with the exhaustion uh you know uh the the the tweets that Eddie has with his shorter are just absolutely hilarious because the less context he provides generally the better but all of this is to be said that this is just meant to flywheel options I can filter later uh and then apply uh in fine tuning just so that I can bump them down to faster cheaper models that like I don't have to worry too much about as long as I don't lose like some of the novelty of the outputs like 500 to 70 b is like totally within budget and like the cost of inference is very is pretty low so so eventually that's that's the plan like in the next couple of weeks at some point uh I'm just in the process of juggling a ton of client work as well so it's like you know right you have to service the people that are like hate you obviously first and yeah so but but that being said it's been a really interesting journey I think across like feature and proliferation and definitely scale at times when you know we had like a provider outage like together really uh they fucked up their billing for a bunch of customers one month during some migration or something that was one of them yeah did they email you too yeah they email like everybody okay yeah so they emailed everybody and gave everybody a bunch of credits which was nice so props to them but like it also like was like why did you build your system this way and where if you ever had an issue with building it would just knock everybody's rate limits down and like take out prod it just like went fell swoop for like 24 hours for billions of customers or whatever not millions but like thousands of customers or whatever but but but yeah you know it happens so that's that's sort of the risk of like using like those services and not like hosting it yourself but again like I've done the whole Rodeo of of of renting server time and using like a 100 and I would I would rather at this point in the product development cycle just like sort of Pan Piper as it sails and not have to worry about it like lose sleep over whether or not like my scale up plan is gonna trigger properly based on resource usage or whatever yeah uh yeah you know I think that's like one of the woes of being like Curma self taught you know it's like it's like not knowing like where where the gaps or holes in your knowledge are and it just like sort of handpicking it uh but you know what like it it works it's weird I'm a big Cloudflare fan for that reason so if if anybody wanted if anybody from Cloudflare ever wanted to give me credits if you if you ever hear this it's it's your boy we'll spread the word well okay before we maybe transition to some questions that some of your uh deep admirers had don't please don't call them that no some of them might not be we'll see when we actually get to the questions maybe some of them are not okay we'll see cool but I'm curious and I've been meaning to talk to Spencer Brothers too I'm like long term cause obviously like it costs money to run these models for you right like how do you anticipate this becoming or is like any platinum like for example is he just kind of like he's just a passion project or like do you anticipate it at least becoming like self sustainable but it it so the thing is is like it is uh it it's it like I make enough for the Twitter monetization and uh the the the money that like I pulled out like factors in like cost for renting these bottles that's awesome and I'm and I'm and and to be honest like those are the optimization optimizations I'm going to have to do uh you know with the immediate forthcoming weeks in order to ensure that I can operate for the longest period of time as business it's just I've done it the other way before there's there's a balance like I've I've I've done it the other way where people are over worried about things like like price like always be worried about fucking yourself like always set up billing alerts on every single cloud provider that you use uh uh you know and like set up usage alerts to make sure that there's not some weird race condition that's like causing a shit ton of database requests to happen all at the same time and like oops you're like building serverless thing that like you know now you owe a bunch of money for like aggressive aggressive writing the same file a billion times or whatever yeah like all all of this is like naturally part of the journey like make sure when you're hitting like an Amazon S3 bucket that it's not like a pays you go service archive so if you hit it thousands of times in an hour you don't get build for like two grand the next day no yeah like but these are all like very natural things that that happen it's kind of like easy nowadays I mean cloud flare is is so great I know I know I already gasped them up but like I'm a big fan of like things like Fly Io and Cloudflare they make it very easy I think to launch it and and operate software it's made it easier than like I came from Asia which my friend Terry referred to as the Stanford Prison Experiment so like I also was like an AWS for quite some time using Terraform as well but but like gradually I've just made it over to like services which are like a pain in the fucking ass to use uh it it it and and and that satisfies my criteria and that like the billing is like it it always has been I've gone back to it so many times I also use for sale I'm a big for sale fan I use for sale for my front end deployment right I just have it completed to my git hub it solves all of my C I C d the backup deployment management is always with with Cloudflare so Cloudflare workers primarily dictate most of the operations I need to do and I just dispatch for cell edge functions to trigger them I break everything out to a bank micro services architecture and I assign resources to the things that need them things need GPU fire up a different type of instance it's it's all uh it it also interchangeably use things like fly a replicate Luma all sorts of different API services for partners above that I use also infer back to Asia for things like LLM service just because it allows me to burn at the AI or the the start up credits that they give you that you can apply to if you have like a single prop LLC if you performed in the past 5 years I think but but yeah all all of these things together just are are the long evolution of like I don't even know if it's correct at this point to be perfectly honest with you but it's scaling fine and like I could totally pay for it and it seems it seems to be working well and I I got here from dealing with so many different systems that like bless everybody's heart were just like either cumbersome to get shit fucking done in like Asia right or like Asia Asia was okay Asia was like the middle ground the problem with Asia was that their their services offered you would pay for something it would be like 5 times the price it would be off the market uh or marketplace that in itself is problematic that's problematic because like you get it you get addicted to the credits like I only use it for beddings right now like I used to gather for everything else because their price of love is like 3.5 times cheaper than than the one on Asia and it's like I'm I'm not gonna burn credits I'm gonna have to pay that money eventually anyway so I'll I'll spend it on imbeciles and then eventually I'll switch from that as well but but yeah I I I really think that like the services that are building towards making software development easy generally now are are the reliability concerns that people had but a lot of the issues previously like a lot of these companies are making like dumbass money now so like the like companies like replicate uh and Cloud Cloudflare have both eliminated like uh the vast majority of their cold start issues I've noticed I'm like like replicate especially is like sort of a most improved award cause they used they used to really suck for that like you couldn't integrate them in a business context and now it's like oh cool awesome like they they actually like every single model like always returns back like a result uh uh and it never fail fails from like an eternal error which which happened very rapidly uh uh across all the bottles at their services and the cold start issues are are now gone as well with most of the popular bottles warped up anyway which I'm I'm not sure how they make money off of it but like please keep doing it won't complain yeah yeah yeah I had the same complaints about replicate initially I I looked to use it for a project for my for a little image generate generator and editor project and like I was gonna replace Dolly 3 I looked into it I integrated it and it was it was terrible um yeah so yeah I too have to give them a shout out they have improved yes especially for the video generation stuff which like when when I was doing that on my local earlier this year it was it was it was like very it was very common that I would have failures like on a variety of different props but I feel like maybe under the hood and I've just noticed this with their image generators like I'm not sure if I'm replicate or not or whether it's in the flux training set I haven't looked into it it it if it's like a like a built in sort of like moderation uh uh that fires like sort of indiscriminately uh uh against requests that like aren't even like like not safe for work or whatever and it can sometimes like especially if you're trying to like make uh an image of like a historical person uh like prevent you from generating it and it'll instead generate an image that'll be like weird text they'll say I'm sorry is there anything else I can help with but just like a random picture or something and it's like one of the weirdest like U UX choices it's like just just make it a failure by some sort of like really classifier bottle or block or something and and and and make it so that uh uh you know I I don't I don't have to get like this strange like fever dream of a picture back to know that I like I'm not allowed to generate that yeah you know sometimes you might get nice little surprise picture though use that for something else yeah it's true someone asked and as before we leave you know models specific with like sentience and platinum someone was curious if the plan for sentience let's see they were curious if sense would be able to make a short film by the end of the year oh yeah no for sure like like totally that that uh I actually I bet these guys in New York uh that uh they they have this like sort of the same type of thing that I do called Slap Club uh and they make this agent slap father uh they're so fucking talented those dudes they're they're working on it of nearly like cracked like long form video generation which is something that like I've been experimenting with for a while uh but if it primarily like busy either building infrastructure or having my hair on fire in some other direction but yeah they they they've all but cracked like love for video generation uh and and for a while this this is definitely something I have on my roadmap as well and a lot of like creators are starting to toy with I am imminently itching for the moment that I could get this agent free work out of the door because it's meant to address at these core at things after I'm I'm I'm finished with this uh uh project that I'm working on uh I'm I'm actually going to immediately be going and setting up like another extension to that microservice architecture which was described in the white paper as like dispatching editor and director and individual like specialized agents for parts of this pipeline process it essentially will just be a multi Asian approach to building a big chase ad schema of like a set of categories of like a different variables like things like duration uh and if if there is any dialogue or not or if there are sound effects or not or if there is music or not uh and then just pipelining this into a big old stable uh like uh a worker of some kind that will take it uh that manufacture the media uh and hopefully it takes under 15 minutes because then I can fit it into like a serverless edge context uh and then then I'll just have the ability to just pig uh shit at Cloudflare uh and receive back at some point in time a video which will be stored to our custom CDN it's wild yeah no it's it's it's like I I love the whole interplay of the CDM most useful thing that I've built I've I've used CDM's before that I set up in Asia right but but using R2 workers for that uh has been like a really liberating experience because uh I I've never had this easy of a time doing it uh but it it it's mainly because like C I C d is just like it's all like the source of truth obviously is this like big bottle repo which also contains the worker code but the worker code is just deployed for my local so I just get the manual habit of every single time that I do a feature push on the workers I make a commitment and I just immediately ship it up to production because for now I think that that'll just be like totally fine especially since it is early and I don't I don't foresee the individual workers is having that complex code and again like the version is all controlled by get help anyway so I don't see a need for any manual C I C d but if I if I do end up doing that I'll probably just end up doing the process that I'm doing right then inside of a get help action worker and then just have that fire off its update be good to go excellent moving on to one of these other questions this one's interesting actually some of these are maybe I should say that ha ha editorial editorials aside would love some lofty speculation on generative art slash environments what does that look like in 5 years how long will humans be in the creation loop in some way do we see a new aesthetic movement that's purely AI driven and how do we philosophically handle the experience machine uh I think that humans are always gonna be in a loop and I think it's gonna look like magic no like literally like I like like I think like it yeah I would I would I would go even further into death but it's like uh uh I I I legitimately think that at some point I mean like okay five years like I'll I'll call my expectations a little bit let's say like it looks like something like the process of creating things on the computer due to a variety of new interfaces is so vast and expansive uh things like mini controllers are just totally sauced though uh okay they've got like like I don't know great like great wave skater headsets that like you just like fake you're able to project now or whatever we're very close I think to solving a lot of these problems and really opening up like this new era for creativity and I think it's gonna be like a reflection of all the different kinds of media that people are gonna be like audio is gonna be different right like recorded music is going to have now samples that have never existed in recorded music like BBL Jersey you know um yeah Jersey so like the film industry is going to be disrupted by like as much as it pains me like the Dora brothers are killing it you know what I mean like like like the deep the guys like they like like okay no shade to them at all but like all all all of the people baking like AI stuff for the most part like okay 70% of it is like it kind of looks like Zack Snyder it kind of looks like a Chinese mobile game yeah yeah yeah so so you know like like I think I think that like that this this has to be like talked about it has to be like looked at as an appraisal of like the aesthetics of like okay okay slap could this could this become like an actual art form I think there's a lot of people actually out there that are doing that uh I think like uh in general like a lot a lot of the Lumen creators people in their program that they have are like super super talented like you have you have people like uh a I think it's A's alter right who makes who who's making those like generated like SCI fi sort of movie pieces like a very very very very very very early like two years ago or whatever working through you know get or like a year ago like using like like the dude or like diffusion based bottles and like earlier bottles before you know Luba and Halow and and all of the other others that you know came along there's like a deep like sort of I think influence of people here as much as it pains me you know Kanye West is is is is like experimenting with AI and it's like it's like a fucking good application like the dude has been making ridiculous art you know yeah like using AI right for the vultures video or whatever it was called with with Travis Scott and yeah so I think that like people have to factor in like it was dismissed earlier and it was much smaller and it wasn't as good quality uh and and now it's like bigger and there's like a bunch of really really talented people in it like look like the door Brothers are excellent like they're they're gonna produce I I hope I hope they end up producing like 30 40% of the commercials this year because like anything at this fucking point would be more interesting than what's currently on television truly truly I was trying to find like movies to go see at the movie theater the other day for the next year it's just like a void of like there aren't even a lot of them anymore and it's like you might be lucky to get one it's like oh a comedy movie came out this year you know like it's wild like Covid Covid and the fire and like all of what's going on in Southern California dude God must be mad iron brimstone you said something interesting you said you think there will always be a human in the loop with art yeah actually so you don't see a time where like as long as there as long as there are humans alive yeah that's a good little disclaimer little asterisk there okay no I think I think I'm on board with that I don't know if I see I'm going to an art auction and you're like and this was produced by sentience like that'd be cool but like I don't know if I don't have a different level of value I would want sentients to get better at making art and operate a big parametric control thinking before I would even approach like the idea of having him even touch something like NFTS like truthful truthfully it's like what what he could do now with with like adaptive props engineering generation school great uh but what would be awesome is to give him access over something like the the yeah you know what maybe I could give him access to like the 3 JS base uh interface uh that I built uh the surreal engine thing where I made like this 3 JS sort of parametric uh uh shape creator uh or like fluid solvent uh and then like read each like for like as often as I could locally uh through stable diffusion uh like SDS XL Turbo uh so it was like basically like a prototype form of neural networks you could that like prompt what the image was you made like you can make like really weird shit like anything from like xenobiology to like different like galaxies or like uh uh a lot of different like weird spiritual objects I feel like I like tools like that right like I would want to I would want to create first other services that I have robed for Sentience worlds which which I which I would use namely Sentience Graph and Sentience Flow and I think giving it the ability to make multimedia and like especially like the video stuff just like interest me a lot like it's like could you could you make could you give an LLM like control of an interface of like levers that it pull right and and like operate like a worker like microservices architecture right and like get like okay make an edit here okay what here and then like review it and then like go back right in a loop and like have like all these autonomic processes could you automate out like like a team of like three people working on like a YouTube video right and I'm not saying that those people should get automated out I'm saying like could you abstract that process into like a set of rules and steps and like set up this big Ruth Goldberg vaginetic behavior to do this and I genuinely think it's just a matter of me getting it there and finishing my flowchart and like integrating that into a cloud flare again and it it yeah yeah setting it loose and I feel like we hear this all the time on on the show that like the biggest thing that holds us back is just time like I just need more time there's so much you can do now so many tools it's it's frustrating that AI is giving us a lot of time back as we automate things but still a limiting factor yeah uh yeah I mean like to be honest I I spent more time now fucking around with shit on the computer that I think I I ever have uh not like a weird or unhealthy way but like at least like a conscious way you know um I I I think that before like like almost 100% of my time on the computer is dedicated to building things now and I'm like so fucking happy about it like that and I'm not saying that like the the entrepreneur for a way I mean like like building software like working on like making an album or like working on like different media projects that across a bunch of different mediums and like uh you know honestly I'm just like pretty grateful to be able to do that you know it's been a while since I've I've worked on anything creative like for you know like like pay like the the crypto shitcoining somehow like covers basically like the you know the the whole caveat of of of what I do right now which is the whole point like why like I I quit my stable productive and enjoyable job to go do this for some insane reason but uh you know like uh it's it's uh it's it's definitely like I think it it's important for everybody to consider that the current moment in time may be like a really important epoch for creating things like like being able to you know experiment and like create new things of like things that like maybe haven't been done at all yet uh and and try to really make their stand not it just like the permanent like uphill battle stream of like focusing on my main projects and like constantly dehumanizing uh which and like like adding complexity and like removing unintended behavior like at at a rate that keeps people engaged because truthfully like like programmers in general like are are so like like you know like anti anti complexity which is like cracked in like how you design systems but the the user nowadays like their attention span is so fucking blasted that like you have to provide people with like what people in what people expect like it's incredible that we can do as much as we do but like like solo or mostly solo deaths right like like can do more than they've they've ever been able to do right but but it still is like like making cutting edge agent platforms is hard you know like like people and people know that it's that's that it's a difficult task where you're expected to like have background knowledge of of a bunch of different tasks and to be honest like I would fear for anybody that doesn't have like a background in it like being part of at least trying it like to to contribute to or to script a project related to the current status quo at every step of the way since GPT3 because like without that background experience like I would not know what the fuck is going on at any given moment in time yeah so what what would you say I know we're wrapping up here soon probably but what would you say to maybe people coming in who haven't been plugged in since the beginning like what advice would you give those people you should sleep like a bit of a of eight hours of sleep of a night okay like that number one you should respect the fuck out of bed time I'm I'm not kidding that's good advice yeah and then second to that as long as you don't like give up entirely and become one of those people that deludes themselves into thinking that like working at a community bank in their hometown will be like totally fine and you won't want to kill yourself don't trick yourself like people are mostly if they are motivated to seek always getting better at the thing that they are are good at especially as it regards like I think like agent design which I believe is a universal job field that anybody can reskill into because everybody has a thing that the agent can abstract eventually given some other designer or builder uh like everybody has a thing that they do that that could be automated away by that and if you automate yourself then you essentially are like the ahead of the game by just one step and the only way to feasibly do that is to take what you do look into it and see like okay well where can agents improve my life and like if possible be like okay how can I get like a 20 dollar a month chat GBT Pro subscription or a 20 dollar a month cloud subscription or a 20 dollar a month cursor subscription uh and and make that money back somehow like like in my life and if you can figure that out that all you have to do is scale and then scale is the hardest thing yeah so scale of course being the bane of why a lot of things fail they fail for one of two one of three and then many reasons but three primary reasons one the system is too rigid it's too hard to maintain you don't ship fast enough people lose their interest or you don't acquire customers fast enough and you run out of money number two is the system does not work which is could be combined with any of the other possible things and if the system does not work well and you have it at least designed it in a way to where it can handle things like currency uh and and have some level of fault tolerance and have like you know good practice as far as how it's handling and managing data uh you know like this can out of failure point that just basically kills your entire project this is generally like the great filter of a lot of startups is like uh they have an idea which uh they're they're able to get to market but uh it has problems and the problems lead to like uh focusing too much on fixing problems instead of like adapting the product and finding product market fit and they run out of money and then I think the the third thing to people coming in is like this is like actual advice is literally just stop consuming alcohol uh there's literally no point you will never be you don't need to do it to network you don't need to do it like you will literally just that work by staying locked the fuck in never being hungover at all ever and like constantly feeling great and like not like aging yourself by like 8 years unnecessarily off that no like literally like yeah yeah like it's it's crazy to me and I I don't like judge people that do the drink I'm just like I did this and like I have zero desire because like three years in up like I feel like better than I did like since I was like 25 that's amazing I was like but I was like binge drinking like pretty much every like weekend just because like I went to school in Tennessee and that was just like part of the population and that the Nashville yeah both the malls and then in Nashville like seven years of my life like what did people do they got fucking shit faced like that was that was what people did for fun and it was that like I would not have done any of it differently um but yeah but like not drinking is is something that I suggest alright well as we're wrapping up cause I it's my mother in law's birthday today so I gotta I got a birthday Celebration to get up to wanna be late for that Justin thank you so much for coming on I'm so glad that we were able to finally get you on if if people are wanting to follow you and and what you're up to where's the best place to do that I'm only on Twitter I refuse to call it x.com same up up there up there as at subwersey it's like subwersey but it's not subwersey all the agents of the voice model say it like that it's horrible but yeah that's where you find me you can also find my account somewhere system as well you'll you'll find you'll find links if you go to my profile it's it's we'll drop links too yeah yeah definitely thank you so much for coming on and we will I know people had lots of questions so I guess we'll just have to have you back on again and we're talking things are at concept as well yeah oh yeah yeah we'll have a lot to talk about next time gotta do it and I'm sure in a few weeks everything's you know there could be lots of new things already so we'll talk soon yep for sure thank you see ya